Produce working product first, validate the idea, stabilize the business, start generating profit, and then you can start optimizing your costs.
In fact optimization is by far the easiest part of the process because there are many system programming experts on this HN thread who consider these optimizations to be trivial.
Looks like they're missing the obvious optimisation of putting the record data right after the CacheEntry members instead of allocating memory separately though. But that might just be me as a C-programmer talking and not be all that easy in Rust.
For the curious, this is technically possible in Rust using a dynamically sized type [1], but in practice is difficult and doesn't really play nice with the rest of the language. The nomicon entry concludes with "Yes, custom DSTs are a largely half-baked feature for now." [2]
Unfortunately, Rust is not a good choice for this kind of tricks. This is where Zig shines. In Rust, you can’t even use proper arenas, which can help a ton with allocations.
Cloudflare started to pick Zig recently, for projects, that have memory constraints.
You definitely can and this is done a lot. What you might mean is that you can't use standard library's collections with them (this is getting stabilized soon!) and have to use third-party, but that is a different thing than "can't use arenas".
> Rust is not a good choice for this kind of tricks.
Rust can do those tricks, but it's true that it is hard than in C or Zig. That said there are often crates to help.
Depends on how the CacheEntry is stored, it's probably stored in a slice of &[CacheEntry] which precludes storing the record data alongside it as the size of each entry must be fixed.
Obvious question: why wasn’t this done earlier? It looks like all the data was already available. At THAT scale, reducing memory usage is a must-have, not a nice-to-have. Weird.
These seem like some fairly standard approaches for reducing memory usage. I can't help to think that the approach of joining several distinct list into a single one in some way undercuts Rust's safety guarantees.
If you previous had three distinct Vec objects, then Rust would guarantee that you can't index out of bounds. If you now put all those objects into a single Vec and rely on offsets, then you now open the door to indexing out of range of these sub-slices without any panics.
It's a minor point, and it doesn't really invalidate the optimization, but I'm surprised the article didn't mention it.
I think it’s more of a time vs code tradeoff, if done properly.
For example in the Vec case, you could theoretically build an alternative which encodes the “three sections” property internally, and ensures correctness at construction time for the pointers. Not as completely safe as a Vec, but you can still get similar benefits for the “business logic”.
But I agree, just having a custom structure that does not provide a safe wrapper around this would be sacrificing standard guarantees.
Sure, and usually one of the ways Rust serves us is with safety guarantees.
Which isn’t to say this optimization is a bad idea, just to say it’s sort of a straw man to imply coding in Rust to take advantage of safety guarantees is “serving Rust”
With my own MaraDNS, I aggressively optimized the memory usage of blacklist entries by having a single really big malloc() to allocate the memory for the entries, then traversing that memory block for potentially blacklisted entries.
When I was using one malloc() per entry, a large blacklist took up 237 megabytes of memory. The same blacklist, once optimized to be loaded with a single malloc() call, only took up 9.5 megabytes of memory.
General theme: Programming language's native in-memory object format is typically optimized for random access, uniformity, and mutability (fields at fixed offsets, etc). Serialization formats for network or disk tend to be designed explicitly to be more compact. But you can design your own in-memory representation too, with the properties you need.
this applies to more than DNS caches. In 1998 I mailed Microsoft a proposal to replace search engine crawlers with a push-based filesystem monitor (detect change → extract → compress → push to index). Got a 5-line rejection letter. They built the same thing 20 years later as IndexNow. Full story with the original letter: https://dev.to/andrew_vl/in-1998-i-proposed-push-based-searc...
I've run into issues with using public wifi when I override my MacBook's DNS server to 1.1.1.1 or 8.8.8.8. I believe this is because captive portals require custom resolution of the name captive.apple.com. And external DNS servers will not resolve that correctly to the local gateway's authorization page.
AFAIK (at least it worked like that some 10 years ago) the captive portal just intercepts the HTTP page load and inserts its own content (most often a 302). So it just has to be a http web page. Firefox uses http://detectportal.firefox.com/canonical.html
Edit: ah, yes, DNS can be hijacked too (requires intercepting outgoing traffic on port 53 therefore incompatible with DoH), that may require fewer computing resources. Still need http otherwise the server cannot use the correct cert chain.
Edit 2: Wikipedia says both methods are used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_portal and also mentions RFC 8910. I suspected something like that existed, hence my initial disclaimer.
My point was: that domain is not treated any differently from other domains.
I've had reliable success by using http://neverssl.com to force a basic HTTP connection for kickstarting a public WiFi portal login, although I have to disable NextDNS (iOS) too.
Can we take a minute to appreciate how utterly broken this state of affairs is? The dogged over centralization of DNS is an endless source of problems.
Frankly weird that they were resorting to high level containers for this in the first place. Also, this line struck me as odd
> Big Pineapple uses jemalloc, an allocator designed for multithreaded, allocation-heavy workloads.
jemalloc multithreaded performance is actually poor(ish) compared to other modern allocators, which makes it a weird choice. But even weirder is why they're even using an allocator in the first place compared to a va MAP_ANON | MAP_NORESERVE arena carveout approach? You can also do punning that way too, which I'm not even certain if Rust supports?
I would also have instinctively reached for a large VM reservation to exploit demand paging. I have used that pattern a lot in C++ but not in Rust, so I don't know how difficult it would be to implement there.
One question the article doesn't answer is: why are they cacheing at all? If your cache is that big it isn't a cache. How much bigger is the dataset in question? There are 250 billion entries. Assuming 80/20, that implies 1.25 trillion records?
What's the speed of service/response time relative to the data source?
At that point it might be enough to replace your multiple caches with fewer in-RAM databases?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this powers 1.1.1.1, it doesn't front an internal dataset. A cache miss hits a nameserver. Which is to say, the dataset is "every DNS record in the world"
I think the question is probably more along the lines of - why not do a database with 100 TB of storage/records instead of a cache? tomato / tomato.. especially with smart caching in front of database. 100TB of flash is a good bit cheaper than 100TB of memory
I'm no expert but presumably all of throughout, latency, and churn. DNS is approximately a giant KV store where the typical record has a TTL of ~5 minutes.
You have to cache, cloudflare doesn't know all the records ahead of time, they have to do recursive lookups to the authoritative servers that own the records and that is only good for the period of the TTL of the record. There is no "global" DNS record database or something like that.
You can define away ‘stale’ by picking a consistency model, but look inside the consistency machinery and you will see fresher data you aren’t allowed to have yet.
For optimistic caching to work you have to use a short TTL when you're returning stale answers to avoid putting clients in a bad state for hours/days, so you end up inviting more requests anyway.
Fine for home DNS (I use it) but not good at whole-internet-scale.
In DNS, the owner of each record has full control over its TTL. Intermediary DNS servers are required to honor them and are not permitted to replace TTLs with their own.
Actually that is not true. The IETF has expanded the definition of “TTL” and explicitly permits resolvers to serve “stale” RRs beyond their expiration time.
You are obliged to pass on the TTL, you're not obliged to cache according to it.
At least in my country (UK) I know of no law relating to DNS caching.
Why throwaway perfectly good data every few minutes that is only modified every couple of years, just so someone can move their domain quickly when they eventually wish to? It is my contention that a [caching] DNS service can do far better. Trusting user (domain owner) input blindly is not for me.
It's not some sort of public law with public enforcement, but it is in the RFCs that govern the protocol.
I should be a bit clearer here; the TTL is an upper bound on how long it can be cached. Caches are free to consult more frequently but not less frequently. That said, out of respect for upstream cache operators and authoritative servers, most DNS caches honor TTLs as best they can.
It's a recursive resolver. The global DNS dataset is not something you could collect to serve directly vs caching from observations.
The data source is authoritative name servers operated by third parties, some of which are slow on their own, some of which are behind slow or lossy networks. Origin response times vary between probably 1 ms and 2 seconds +/- origins that never respond.
The simple answer is that if you didn't cache, DNS traffic would skyrocket, and the load would pile up on the authoritative servers, which were intended to be small, and during the early days of the Internet, were frequently on bandwidth-constrained links.
DNS is designed to distribute query load to the edge as much as possible, and that's enabled by caching. It just so happens that "the edge" is now becoming concentrated among a small set of providers because they wanted to make a business out of it.[1] They knew that this would be expensive going in, though.
[1] Nobody has to use 8.8.8.8 or 1.1.1.1. Most people can use their ISP's cache or a local cache instead without any noticeable difference in behavior.
The problem is there is a noticable difference in behavior because the ISP cache is overloaded so queries take longer. Sure, that's not everyone's experience, but there's a reason people chose to use alternate servers.
The most interesting result to me is that the richer parsed representation was not necessarily the faster one. If the hot path is mostly “read from cache and serialize back to DNS,” parsing everything upfront only to serialize it again can become unnecessary work and hurt locality....
You start, get the type & length, and then that is how many bytes you read.
Some issues with that when you deserialize, from a raw stream in to `[u8; 4096]` buffer, the alignment is only guaranteed to be on 1 byte, not 4 bytes.
In practice it is 4 bytes, but if you run those tests with Miri, you'll get yelled at. So the fix there is to declare the buffer with a type that mandates the alignment of the largest type that you're going to be deserializing.
So then you start your buffer as follows: `[u32; 1024]`, and with `slice::from_raw_parts` you get to turn that into `[u8; 4096]` with the expected alignment.
As an exercise I wrote a streaming parser for netlink, the current existing package serializes everything, all at once.
Rule 1. You can't tell where a program is going to spend its time. Bottlenecks occur in surprising places, so don't try to second guess and put in a speed hack until you've proven that's where the bottleneck is.
Rule 2. Measure. Don't tune for speed until you've measured, and even then don't unless one part of the code overwhelms the rest.
Rule 3. Fancy algorithms are slow when n is small, and n is usually small. Fancy algorithms have big constants. Until you know that n is frequently going to be big, don't get fancy. (Even if n does get big, use Rule 2 first.)
Rule 4. Fancy algorithms are buggier than simple ones, and they're much harder to implement. Use simple algorithms as well as simple data structures.
Rule 5. Data dominates. If you've chosen the right data structures and organized things well, the algorithms will almost always be self-evident. Data structures, not algorithms, are central to programming.
Notice rules are ordered. You don't optimize until you know you need it. They started with a data structure they though would be fine. Clearly it was fine since it worked and they decided it was later worth optimizing.
The existence of 1.1.1.1 speaks to a much larger design problem. If you want to talk about what should have been done, you need to step much, much further back.
It is often not worth optimising in the early days. You don't know how popular it will become, you might not know how many DNS records you will hold, it was possibly written in an earlier language and ported as-is.
At the point someone queries the 100TB of RAM, then maybe it is worth revisiting but even that has risks. You have to design the migration path, have fallback mechanisms etc.
It only looks super obvious in hindsight and the well explained blog post. when a team of 5 is tasked with getting a completely new DNS up at the scale and integrate well with cloudflare.
if you spend cycles on nitty gritty opinions like this time to market goes out further and further out. some napkin math, 130 gen13 servers cost "only" ~$2.6M. relative to the importance of the 1.1.1.1 and the market at the time. that is nothing to cloudflare.
this is not to say good system design does not matter. it very much does, but making that call at that time would've butchered the prodcut very much similar to google+, youtube etc.
This one also looks pretty obvious "in foresight" (using the same tools that existed back then. Maybe owner dedupe might be less obvious and require a bit of knowledge and probing into actual data, but for rw vs ro you are fine knowing nothing?) and you forgot the napkin math re. how much your precious "time to market" would have been delayed by.
It's also not nothing, otherwise it would never be optimized away now, but left as is. After all, wasting time on optimization delays "time to market" for other useful features.
I also don't get the reference to YouTube, it's a very successful product, how was it butchered by good system design???
Premature optimization argument fits right in. Now that memory is up to 10x more expensive it is worth considering optimizing programs with large memory footprint.
One of the "evils" of premature optimization is how much time you spend on the optimization vs. the benefit you get from it. If your goal is correctness and shipping fast and you're not memory constrained then spending time using the least amount of memory is a waste of time specifically because you want to ship fast.
Another interesting thing that happens is you don't necessarily know what form your actual optimizations will need to take. Later when your systems grow you discover the suboptimal parts you hadn't optimized for.
Very early on at Cloudflare I worked on part of the DNS infrastructure that took DNS records from the UI and got them in a state for actual authoritative serving. The system had been constructed anticipating Cloudflare having millions of customers with unique domains, but it had not been constructed for a single customer with a single domain with millions of records. This caused a periodic slow down in DNS record updating while the system churned on that one customer.
In a different job I worked on a piece of optimization software that needed to keep track of "node" A is reachable from node "B". This had been implemented as a matrix (literally a malloced NxN matrix of ints storing 0 or 1) which worked really well for small systems. But you'd be out of memory really fast on a large project. I replaced the matrix with a hash table and all was good because the matrix was actually really sparse.
Absolutely true, but I will say that LLMs have changed the equation somewhat.
With a rather short prompt, claude/codex will take your code, write a harness, profile it, build experiments, profile those, and give some pretty solid advice which one to pick. Then integrate the changes. It's the kind of goal-directed, bite-sized job that LLMs excel at. Extremely low-commitment.
Except for the whole "making changes in production at scale" problem, of course.
Engineers are expensive, especially good system engineers who are trained in your code base. Very possible that this just hadn't gotten to the top of the priority list.
I don't understand why you need training on your code base to design a cache format for read only vs rw workloads, but anyway yours is a comment about neglect, not the "evil" that would happen if you did that design
I see your point but disagree. Engineering is about constraints. Time, materials, labor, scope.
The “evil” of premature optimization is that it’s a misapplication of priority. If I have an acute medical problem that needs attention, it’s not the right time to talk about chloresterol and statins, get my broken leg set.
There’s always a tension between engineering management who needs to deliver a solution to the business and engineers who want to deliver a beautiful object.
> I don't understand why you need training on your code base to design a cache format
Because anyone willing to come in just to design your cache format is going to expect payment that is many multiples more than the engineers you already cannot afford? Long-term employees cost less, which brings them closer to being affordable, but you have to be able to keep them busy for long periods of time to realize that reduction in cost. A engineer who doesn't understand your codebase isn't going to be useful for very long.
Discussing trivial optimizations is a waste of valuable design time. You're never going to "forget" an optimization. The running system will remind you when the optimization is actually needed.
Produce working product first, validate the idea, stabilize the business, start generating profit, and then you can start optimizing your costs.
In fact optimization is by far the easiest part of the process because there are many system programming experts on this HN thread who consider these optimizations to be trivial.
Looks like they're missing the obvious optimisation of putting the record data right after the CacheEntry members instead of allocating memory separately though. But that might just be me as a C-programmer talking and not be all that easy in Rust.
[1] https://doc.rust-lang.org/reference/dynamically-sized-types....
[2] https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/exotic-sizes.html
I assumed they couldn't do that because they're using it with some kind of generic HashMap<K, V>. In that situation, can "V" be dynamically sized?
A dynamically sized "V" would mean you can't have an array of them, which might preclude some hash map implementations.
, which HashMap does not do, i.e. the keys and values have to have a statically known size.
Cloudflare started to pick Zig recently, for projects, that have memory constraints.
You definitely can and this is done a lot. What you might mean is that you can't use standard library's collections with them (this is getting stabilized soon!) and have to use third-party, but that is a different thing than "can't use arenas".
> Rust is not a good choice for this kind of tricks.
Rust can do those tricks, but it's true that it is hard than in C or Zig. That said there are often crates to help.
If you previous had three distinct Vec objects, then Rust would guarantee that you can't index out of bounds. If you now put all those objects into a single Vec and rely on offsets, then you now open the door to indexing out of range of these sub-slices without any panics.
It's a minor point, and it doesn't really invalidate the optimization, but I'm surprised the article didn't mention it.
For example in the Vec case, you could theoretically build an alternative which encodes the “three sections” property internally, and ensures correctness at construction time for the pointers. Not as completely safe as a Vec, but you can still get similar benefits for the “business logic”.
But I agree, just having a custom structure that does not provide a safe wrapper around this would be sacrificing standard guarantees.
Not really. You just need to make the underlying fields private and provide methods to get slices to the data you need.
Thank being said in this case it should be impossible to index out of bounds so maybe a panic is warented.
Which isn’t to say this optimization is a bad idea, just to say it’s sort of a straw man to imply coding in Rust to take advantage of safety guarantees is “serving Rust”
When I was using one malloc() per entry, a large blacklist took up 237 megabytes of memory. The same blacklist, once optimized to be loaded with a single malloc() call, only took up 9.5 megabytes of memory.
https://samboy.github.io/blog/entries/MaraDNS.html#BlogEntry...
Relevant support page, though light in details: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/captive-portal
Edit: ah, yes, DNS can be hijacked too (requires intercepting outgoing traffic on port 53 therefore incompatible with DoH), that may require fewer computing resources. Still need http otherwise the server cannot use the correct cert chain.
Edit 2: Wikipedia says both methods are used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captive_portal and also mentions RFC 8910. I suspected something like that existed, hence my initial disclaimer.
My point was: that domain is not treated any differently from other domains.
> Big Pineapple uses jemalloc, an allocator designed for multithreaded, allocation-heavy workloads.
jemalloc multithreaded performance is actually poor(ish) compared to other modern allocators, which makes it a weird choice. But even weirder is why they're even using an allocator in the first place compared to a va MAP_ANON | MAP_NORESERVE arena carveout approach? You can also do punning that way too, which I'm not even certain if Rust supports?
What's the speed of service/response time relative to the data source?
At that point it might be enough to replace your multiple caches with fewer in-RAM databases?
It's an interesting problem.
Not really, TTLs are often short, but IPs might not change for years.
You can probably generate your own TTL, at scale, and avoid many DNS requests.
Or alternatively, if you don't tamper why would I want to use a service that serves stale data?
You can define away ‘stale’ by picking a consistency model, but look inside the consistency machinery and you will see fresher data you aren’t allowed to have yet.
Fine for home DNS (I use it) but not good at whole-internet-scale.
https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc8767/
As a corollary, there is obviously no floor on refetching unexpired RRs, of course, except for efficiency concerns.
At least in my country (UK) I know of no law relating to DNS caching.
Why throwaway perfectly good data every few minutes that is only modified every couple of years, just so someone can move their domain quickly when they eventually wish to? It is my contention that a [caching] DNS service can do far better. Trusting user (domain owner) input blindly is not for me.
I should be a bit clearer here; the TTL is an upper bound on how long it can be cached. Caches are free to consult more frequently but not less frequently. That said, out of respect for upstream cache operators and authoritative servers, most DNS caches honor TTLs as best they can.
The data source is authoritative name servers operated by third parties, some of which are slow on their own, some of which are behind slow or lossy networks. Origin response times vary between probably 1 ms and 2 seconds +/- origins that never respond.
DNS is designed to distribute query load to the edge as much as possible, and that's enabled by caching. It just so happens that "the edge" is now becoming concentrated among a small set of providers because they wanted to make a business out of it.[1] They knew that this would be expensive going in, though.
[1] Nobody has to use 8.8.8.8 or 1.1.1.1. Most people can use their ISP's cache or a local cache instead without any noticeable difference in behavior.
Interestingly this is exactly how netlink works-ish: https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/focal/man3/netlink.3.ht...
You start, get the type & length, and then that is how many bytes you read.
Some issues with that when you deserialize, from a raw stream in to `[u8; 4096]` buffer, the alignment is only guaranteed to be on 1 byte, not 4 bytes.
In practice it is 4 bytes, but if you run those tests with Miri, you'll get yelled at. So the fix there is to declare the buffer with a type that mandates the alignment of the largest type that you're going to be deserializing.
So then you start your buffer as follows: `[u32; 1024]`, and with `slice::from_raw_parts` you get to turn that into `[u8; 4096]` with the expected alignment.
As an exercise I wrote a streaming parser for netlink, the current existing package serializes everything, all at once.
Were there no design discussions/reviews when the system was setup to catch trivial things like this?
Rule 1. You can't tell where a program is going to spend its time. Bottlenecks occur in surprising places, so don't try to second guess and put in a speed hack until you've proven that's where the bottleneck is.
Rule 2. Measure. Don't tune for speed until you've measured, and even then don't unless one part of the code overwhelms the rest.
Rule 3. Fancy algorithms are slow when n is small, and n is usually small. Fancy algorithms have big constants. Until you know that n is frequently going to be big, don't get fancy. (Even if n does get big, use Rule 2 first.)
Rule 4. Fancy algorithms are buggier than simple ones, and they're much harder to implement. Use simple algorithms as well as simple data structures.
Rule 5. Data dominates. If you've chosen the right data structures and organized things well, the algorithms will almost always be self-evident. Data structures, not algorithms, are central to programming.
https://web.archive.org/web/20260314210910/https://users.ece...
So you agree that they should've designed the system to use the appropriate data structure from the beginning?
At the point someone queries the 100TB of RAM, then maybe it is worth revisiting but even that has risks. You have to design the migration path, have fallback mechanisms etc.
So how would you decide which path to take in situations like this?
if you spend cycles on nitty gritty opinions like this time to market goes out further and further out. some napkin math, 130 gen13 servers cost "only" ~$2.6M. relative to the importance of the 1.1.1.1 and the market at the time. that is nothing to cloudflare.
this is not to say good system design does not matter. it very much does, but making that call at that time would've butchered the prodcut very much similar to google+, youtube etc.
It's also not nothing, otherwise it would never be optimized away now, but left as is. After all, wasting time on optimization delays "time to market" for other useful features.
I also don't get the reference to YouTube, it's a very successful product, how was it butchered by good system design???
Another interesting thing that happens is you don't necessarily know what form your actual optimizations will need to take. Later when your systems grow you discover the suboptimal parts you hadn't optimized for.
Very early on at Cloudflare I worked on part of the DNS infrastructure that took DNS records from the UI and got them in a state for actual authoritative serving. The system had been constructed anticipating Cloudflare having millions of customers with unique domains, but it had not been constructed for a single customer with a single domain with millions of records. This caused a periodic slow down in DNS record updating while the system churned on that one customer.
In a different job I worked on a piece of optimization software that needed to keep track of "node" A is reachable from node "B". This had been implemented as a matrix (literally a malloced NxN matrix of ints storing 0 or 1) which worked really well for small systems. But you'd be out of memory really fast on a large project. I replaced the matrix with a hash table and all was good because the matrix was actually really sparse.
With a rather short prompt, claude/codex will take your code, write a harness, profile it, build experiments, profile those, and give some pretty solid advice which one to pick. Then integrate the changes. It's the kind of goal-directed, bite-sized job that LLMs excel at. Extremely low-commitment.
Except for the whole "making changes in production at scale" problem, of course.
The “evil” of premature optimization is that it’s a misapplication of priority. If I have an acute medical problem that needs attention, it’s not the right time to talk about chloresterol and statins, get my broken leg set.
There’s always a tension between engineering management who needs to deliver a solution to the business and engineers who want to deliver a beautiful object.
Because anyone willing to come in just to design your cache format is going to expect payment that is many multiples more than the engineers you already cannot afford? Long-term employees cost less, which brings them closer to being affordable, but you have to be able to keep them busy for long periods of time to realize that reduction in cost. A engineer who doesn't understand your codebase isn't going to be useful for very long.